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Episode transcript

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Lilly Ryan: Welcome to this episode of the ºÚÁÏÃÅ technology podcast. I'm your host, Lilly Ryan, and I'm speaking to you from the lands of the Wurundjeri people in Melbourne, Australia. Today I'm talking with Srini Raguraman, a principal technologist at ºÚÁÏÃÅ, about a piece that he recently co-authored with our other podcast co-host Ken Mugrage in the MIT Review. This piece is called Reckoning with Generative AI's Uncanny Valley. Today, we're going to unpack a lot of these concepts and how they interact with generative AI tooling in the way that we're seeing it today. Srini, welcome to the show.

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Srinivasan Raguraman: Thanks. Thanks for having me here.

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Lilly: What is the uncanny valley? This is a term I've heard a lot, but I've usually heard it in the context of robotics or animation or something like that. How does it apply to the collection of technologies that we're calling AI these days?

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Srini: Yes. The concept of uncanny valley, like you said, you probably commonly associate with robotics, but we have seen this up here in other terms as well. For example, in the past when we are developing mobile application, we have been seeing that when you're building a mobile app, lot and often teams take a shortcut like, "Okay, I have a website. Can I wrap this into a app and release it?" When the users use that app, mostly it's functional, but they can also quickly at times feel cheated in the sense the experience doesn't match what it should be matching with the ecosystem.

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That's the place where there's a little bit of surprise or bad feeling, feeling the negative side of things. That's why we've called this the uncanny valley and we see this up here in other technical domains like the site and cross-mobile platform stuff. We're also now seeing in LLM. What's special about LLM? I think LLM or generative AI for that sense, it's a non-deterministic software in some sense. It can give the same inputs, but not necessarily you will get the same outputs. You can fine-tune and instruct, try to prompt, and try to make it the same answer. Even then there is not sure that you get the right answers.

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Lilly: That's in opposition to something like a calculator where you would input 1 + 2 and you would expect it to be 3 every single time. That's more of a deterministic approach. The non-deterministic, you're getting a lot of different kinds of output and the same input could generate a wide variety of different responses depending on what the model's got in its training dataset, how it's been weighted, that kind of thing, right?

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Srini: Yes, exactly. A small change in input or a small change in something that the model relies on can have a quite different outcome or output. I think this is the behavior of LLM, which is actually quite useful as well because we can see the use cases of LLM where it's writing text or essays, where actually that's useful to not have the same essays for millions of people giving the same input. It's useful and also the other side of things where it can not be useful. This makes it what the surprise can be, either surprise or it could be disappointing. This disappointment is probably where it starting feeling at the uncanny valley.

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Lilly: This uncanny valley thing, it really describes that creepy feeling that you experience when you're expecting something to be human and then something happens, there's some kind of output or appearance or something just even for a moment that reminds you or indicates that the thing that you're speaking to is not human. I think classically they spoke about zombies as falling into this category. It's a bit spooky. It's human-shaped, but the behavior, the movements, and that kind of thing don't feel the same.

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For a lot of people, that's where that uncanniness can come from. I can see how it applies in this situation too where you have these moments where suddenly if you are interacting, say, with say a chatbot, in that case, you end up with something that really surprises you. When it comes to how we look at this in a business context, why is it important to think this through?

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Srini: Like I said, the uncanny early experiences could be for many reasons. One of them, evolutionary responses. Our brain are wire to detect anomalies. It could be a neurological thing because you feel that way, pain, but it's also very common about the mismatch in expectation of the output. That's why I would probably dive back to the expectation on the capabilities of LLM. The capabilities of LLM is wide-ranging, and now if you'd see the market, there's a bunch of models. There's large language models that are even specialized small language models. How would someone make sense of this, whether this is a right model for me, for this context of the job I'm picking up?

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If the mental model for picking that right model is not said, that also reflects on the user experience. It's not just about what the user can see. It's also how the developer's building around it, need to have to pick the right one. This have a bigger impact in business. Most commonly you're probably hearing a lot of people are experimenting or doing a PoC for our generative AI. You ask them, "Have you deployed to production?" The answer is mostly, "We are not sure about the implication or ramifications, so we are holding it at the PoC." I think that's where there's uncanny value experience, and the impact of that is quite evident in making or even productionizing the model.

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Lilly: Because nobody wants to put that experience in front of a customer. We've seen many cases that have made the news where because of that experience happening in front of a customer, there's been a lot of negative backlash, brand reputation impact, that kind of thing. Yes, it's tough. I like the distinction that you drew there about the way that people are thinking about it in terms of their different roles. What kinds of mental models about this kind of current crop of generative AI technologies have you seen out in the wild?

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When you're speaking to clients, when you're speaking to developers, and when you're speaking to members of the public, I think all three of those groups can really have some very different ideas about what generative AI is and can have different ideas in different contexts. What kind of mental models have you seen people have and what do you think are the helpful ones?

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Srini: I could start with what I can hearing from clients or people who are first looking at the LLM. The first time they look at it is like, "Okay, this model can reasonably answer me and can learn from my interaction." The most common question they had is, "I deploy an LLM model. Now, based on how I'm using it, does it automatically learn from it?" Most people assume that it automatically learns from it, but it's not true. The LLMs, they have this certain modeling and then they can generate responses, but not necessarily learning from your question.

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They have the concept of context window where they can use certain range of information to give us more a response that you're looking for. Outside that context window, there's not much of memory on its own. It doesn't learn from you. I also think this is partially driven by how the industry is approaching this. One common thing is when people experience interaction with LLMs, they feel like, "Okay, it feels like it's reasoning," but it's not really reasoning and it doesn't really have the basic capabilities, or it's not built like humans.

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It is a probabilistic model, also called as stochastic, where it just generates an output based on bunch of parameters. It's not reasoning for you, but it feels like reasoning. This is tying back to the output looks more human, so you assume with that mental model, it can reason.

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Lilly: You could for example, ask a chatbot something like, "Please explain how Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa ties to the cultural aesthetic of the time in which it was painted." It could probably say something about that, but you could then ask it classic something like, "How many Rs in the word strawberry?" and it's not going to be able to get to that point. That that's quite a famous one. I know that OpenAI has named one of their more recent models codename strawberry because they were looking at, how do we solve this problem. It's fundamentally one of the things that I think the industry is looking at quite a lot, right?

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Srini: Yes. The concept we're moving towards AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, that's the goal's probably useful or it has its own people looking outcome of it. It also leads to the common understanding of like, "Should I be worried about this or can it actually do all the thing I can think of?" That doesn't actually help people to be very realistic or to be actually interacting with these models with the right mindset. The common story, I think of the one thing I found as a mental model I heard in good terms out of framing for that, that's useful is the AI as the stone soup.

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This is the story of three strangers coming into a village and they say, "Okay, do you have anything to make a soup?" The villages are like, "No. We have our food, but we don't want to share with you." They're like, "It's okay. We will make a stone soup, which is very delicious." They start making, putting stones, and start boiling water, and then they say, "Oh, it tastes nice." It just need a little bit of something. Do you have something? They quickly borrow things from the villages and slowly adding things like carrots or whatnot.

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Slowly, actually the soup, the outcome is delicious. It's not because of the stones or the boiling from it or the things that's strange about. It's about the people, what the information they share, the data I share. I think this sets the context of the LLM as a good model where the outcome is actually determined by a lot of things that you share. It's not a magical thing to solve. You are aware of how the whole process works and what it translates into. I feel like this is a good analogy or metaphor that actually can help people to approach LLM or Generative AI with the right mindset.

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Lilly: It gives you this basis from which to structure your own thinking by offering you the possibility of anything and then having it reflect back to you the things that you put into it and build on top of it over time as not quite a collaborator in that way that it is actively participating with you, but that it provides the framework for you and the people working with you on this to get something substantial out of it.

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Srini: Totally. You also mentioned about what's the other mental models people are-- The common one I can see with business is they have this assumption, "I can replace something with this entirely." You can call it as an automation bias where they want to automate a big chunk of thing without understanding the ecosystem. I can quote a recent example with the coding assistance. With coding assistance and other stuff, the outcome they want to replace is writing, generating code. The coding assistance can generate code, but then does it makes easy to read those code in production when you're trying to debug? Those kind of things.

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The assumptions people take is, "I can substitute some part of the current workflow entirely with the LLM or Generative AI," often leads to other problems where I think you can learn from the past where automation with humans and machines is similar thing where if you take for example, pilots using autopilot. When they are using autopilot, they're not exercising their regular skills, but they also need to know about how autopilot engages.

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There's a bit of complexity that they also need to understand to be able to step in and disengage autopilot in a place where it's relevant. It's not like suddenly I have an autopilot, I have taken care of these things completely out of the human control and doing a best job out of it. It actually increases the cognitive load for the people to understand how the machines operate.

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I think for a human-machine interaction, there's two bits that's very important. One is the observability part of it where you want to know what the process is replacing and how it's behaving. Given a Generative AI model, it's not a deterministic model, it makes it challenging. The other bit is able to direct the machine or the LLM to a specific task. You can do that bit of a prompting saying, "Hey, can you focus on this bit and change it?" Again, it's not as direct to as in you're driving a bike or you're driving your car.

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The key bit of automation that actually makes this human machine or human automation works well is the observability and directing, but the nature of LLM challenges this. The nature of LLM is not quite adaptive for this kind of expectation. I think that's where the industry is generally moving about how we can improve the reliability or how we can bring the observability and the directability. That's probably where these mental models can help them to approach it very realistically.

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Lilly: It's interesting that you talk about how it can be used to augment a lot of things, and you also mentioned the problems around things like pilots understanding autopilot. There's also a concern that if you're adapting too many automated models in your workflows, that you will replace the people who are learning from doing those kinds of tasks as introductory tasks. If they've just started out their careers and something can replace them in that space, how then do we get people who are going to be seniors in, say, 10 years' time learning the foundational skills right now? Is there an approach that you would recommend that people take if they are looking at these kinds of solutions such that you are not only helping people with these things but also helping people grow their skills from first principles?

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Srini: Yes. I think that's a very interesting question in the sense also very important one. When you are replacing something, it's taking away the opportunity or the current process. It is important for people to study the ecosystem. What is the second-order effects of doing this and what it can imply? If there is an impact on another role or on another person, then opportunity is taken away. Then there needs to be other set of things that need to be pulled off. I read about this somewhere where the doctors using robotics these days.

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They can actually make very minute operations very clearly, which probably previously required 10 assistants in the operation room. Now it's robotics with robotic hands. They just have to use the robotic to control and make the operation. Usually, they don't have that many assistants on the room. When the assistants look at it, they just look at the machine operating. They're not really looking at like the person, how they are controlling and other stuff. This changes the learning ecosystem for even new people and due to the cost and other things involved, again, only people who are experts are given opportunity to operate robotics.

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When someone is new in their career, there's not enough ways for them to actually do a robotic operation unless they are experts. In a way, I feel like these LLM or these advanced techniques very useful tools for experts because they know what the machine can do, and they can also sense that it's not going right or things like that very effectively. Actually, their knowledge and the people's knowledge is the key bit in making that all outcome, maybe 10x effect right? At the same time, it breaks the metaphor of-- or not even a metaphor, but it breaks how other people can engage in this.

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Maybe there needs to be a second simulation plays or a digital twin or those other things needs to be explored where people can safely move from novice into slowly able to run, but just replacing something have this secondary effects. Outside this, I can also think of the AlphaGo. I think the trend after AlphaGo is the player's ranking started stacking up. Previously, level X is probably the golden standard, but after AlphaGo, people learn from the interaction because experts can learn from that, the player ranking went really, really high and it's now somewhere differently.

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Also, it changes how people can learn. Previously, something learned naturally, now people have to learn it by looking at how the machine performs. Someone said it's like learning from cheat sheets. You are missing that foundation. You are to jump from somewhere else to be effective at that point, but how do you bridge the gap? Yes, it raises a lot of interesting questions, to be honest.

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Lilly: I think it puts a lot of responsibility on us when we're implementing systems like this to think through those second and third-order impacts on the world around us. Not for just solving the problem right in front of us, but for what that problem was doing in the world in the first place and whether while it provides a point of friction, that friction is also something that we have been learning from over time as a part of the larger ecosystem.

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I liked the part in the article that you wrote where you were talking about using the uncanny valley sensation, that kind of misstep eeriness as a way of reminding ourselves that what we are dealing with here is not actually human and that it is a machine and that there are things that we need to be mindful of around it. This particular feeling is a good reminder of that and a good tool and that kind of thing. In terms of the way that people have approached the uncanny valley problem, if indeed it is a problem, in the past in many different kinds of fields, there are some folks who have tried to bridge that uncanny valley and say, "Right, the goal should be that we're getting right to the other side of the valley where we need to have something that will behave exactly like a human being at all times."

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You see this in some applications of animation, for example, where this problem comes up where people are pushing the boundaries to try and have more and more realistic animation over time. At the other side of that, you have folks who are saying that the uncanny valley should just be avoided, that it's not actually worth bridging, that the goal is not about that, but it is to stay on this side of the valley and work with the thing within the limits that it has.

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I think for me, one of the interesting applications of this mindset was, for example, when they were animating Toy Story, which was very early on with computer-generated images, and they chose this story based on plastic toys because they knew that they could animate something like that without falling into this uncanny valley trap, that this fit the level that the technology was at at the time, and that they could tell a good story within the bounds of what was possible, but that they firmly acknowledged that those boundaries were there.

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Do you think that the uncanny valley should be bridged, or do you think it should be avoided?

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Srini: I think it's more about being aware of that can trigger your set of things that you can. It's not something can be avoided. It is something to be looked at at every aspect of the work as in the Toy Story example you said. It is not just for the end user. It's also the people who are building it. It can show up in different places. The moment if you show up in different places is also a good reminder to how we can understand this better or how we can make it easier for someone else to actually work with us. I can think of end of the day AI feels like it can reason, but we know it's a probabilistic model.

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Having that mental model helps you to actually approach it with what else people can assume from it, how we can bridge gaps around it, or how we can enable people to be aware of those things. Not giving them bit of a guided exploration or some guidance on it lead into a lot more assumptions building on top of it. That's where it leads to the place where it definitely going to be an uncanny valley, but the problem of that can be catastrophic for how they interpret it.

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I think this happened in data explorations at other places as well. I would say, for example, even you're taking data algorithm, if it's blindly implemented, the outcome or outcome of the choice of the machine is just implemented without considering the context and other stuff, it can, and shown in many places that it is not a right outcome where people needs to actually question what the system is providing, why it's providing, and is the context is right, and they should have the ability to actually contextualize it.

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Lilly: In addition to thinking about the uncanny valley as a mental model for working with Generative Artificial Intelligence technologies, in the piece that you wrote, you also talk about the kinds of tooling that people can implement to help minimize the likelihood of these kinds of uncanny valley moments. If the choice of generative AI tooling is something that people want to pursue and go ahead with in the context where they're trying to apply it, can you talk a bit about the ways that you would recommend people think about this in practice when it comes to minimizing those moments?

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Srini: When it comes to minimizing these moments, I would probably say, for example, going back to the point of it is not a deterministic software. How we can make it more understandable, how we can make it reliable? There are modern techniques like evals or testing things or guardrails where you can make sure these kind of things cannot leak from building the system. You can also think about how people interact with it, not just the customers, the developers because their assumptions about the model actually can lead to an outcome that is not correct.

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Every time a new model is coming out, there's a question also comes in like, "Is this better than the other one? How much better than this?" The question again is the context of the problem you're solving and a new model can do better in something else or it can be slightly better. As an engineer or a developer who's building this ecosystem, is to build measures and toolings, like testing techniques or establishing benchmarks like, "Okay, if my LLM can answer these questions reliably for these many things, then I can have some trust on it." I also put some guardrails which says these things cannot happen. It's building that foundation layer, you can call it, or a layer of things that can help you to have a good sense of that from my context of the problem.

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Again, I stress the context of the problem because there may be off-the-shelf guardrails and other stuff which can be very generic. It may give you a false sense of promise saying like, "Okay, this is taken care of," but the context of the problem is the key is where your business use case or the problem you're trying to solve a very specific question. That's where you need to go back to the first principles and find out what is the right questions that I need to make sure if this model replies is still valid.

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I think in a way, that's the role of the developers or engineers, is to make sure the shiny models keep dropping, but does it make sense to adopt, whether it's safe, whether it's safely built, how people are going to interact with the system or their controls? Are there controls in other places where they can actually adapt to this more? Those are the things I would say.

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Lilly: Yes, it's the right tool for the right job and making sure that if it is the right tool, you're thinking through the context that it's going to be applied in, and those knock-on impacts on the wider ecosystem, I think. Is there anything that you would like to leave our listeners with today in terms of thinking through how the uncanny valley could be useful to them in their work?

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Srini: Working with LLMs, I think previously, automation is probably done focusing on replacing mundane tasks or can we do this efficiently, or using machinery and other stuff. LLMs I think people are engaged in creative work with it, as in can you generate a nicer image, or can you generate a bunch of ideas or an approach? This is more of a cognitive work. When you're doing cognitive work, it is very important, even when you're working with someone else, in establishing what is the outcome you want to achieve, or my assumption about the other person or how they are thinking through. Is this correct?

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It's reducing those feedback loops or how we can course correct. That becomes paramount. I think that's where for everyone, this concept of uncanny valley could be a good reminder about, "Okay, do I understand about the other side of the things enough? Why did I fall into this? What are the things can be looked after? Would someone else also allow this in a way? Is it something trivial or is it going to actually have a knock-on effect?"

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I think this concept of thinking through this like, "What would I feel when this happened and why did I feel through this?" The constant reminder of it's a cognitive work. When you're working in a cognitive work, this common understanding and knowing about the other side of things is quite important.

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Lilly: [background music] Well, Srini Raguraman, thank you so much for joining us today on the ºÚÁÏÃÅ technology podcast. I'm pleased to have you here.

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Srini: Thank you, and thank you for having me.