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Podcast Transcript

Alexei Boas:

Hello and welcome to the ºÚÁÏÃÅ Podcast. My name is Alexei and I'm the head of tech for Brazil and I'll be one of your hosts this time together with Rebecca Parsons. Hello Rebecca.

Rebecca Parsons:

Hello Alexei. Hello everybody. My name is Rebecca Parsons and I'm the chief technology officer for ºÚÁÏÃÅ and one of your co-hosts on the ºÚÁÏÃÅ Podcast.

Alexei Boas:

And we are here this time with Luciano Ramalho. So Luciano, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Would you mind talking a little bit about yourself?

Luciano Ramalho:

Well, thank you very much for having me, it's a pleasure to be hanging out with you guys again. So my name is Luciano Ramalho, I'm a principal consultant at ºÚÁÏÃÅ in Brazil. And I guess my main to fame before I joined ºÚÁÏÃÅ in 2015, was that I wrote a book called Fluent Python and people who have read that book have probably noticed that I have a lot of interests in other languages besides Python because I mentioned... I often will compare Python features with other languages. Sometimes I find the pattern feature better than most other language, sometimes not. Sometimes I think I am mentioning features of other languages that I wish Python had. So that's a little bit about me.

Alexei Boas:

It's good you mentioned Python features because I guess we're here today to talk a little bit about language features in general. And if I remember correctly, it all started with a provocation say is Go objects oriented or functional and then you started talking about language paradigms and well, they might be a little bit outdated these days. So what are your thoughts on that Luciano?

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, so I was part of a conversation that had to do with the issue of what kind of design patterns can you use in Go and whether some functional programming style makes sense in Go or not. And then I started thinking about that it is a funny thing about my biography is that I have a degree in library sciences that I took because I became interested in this subject of information architecture around the time of the web bubble. I was developing... I was working with very large news portal and in my library sciences course, one thing that I learned was the distinction between ontologies that are [inaudible 00:02:24]. and other classifications, systems like a tag-based classification systems and then I realized there are a lot of discussions that I had read that were interesting about design patterns.

Luciano Ramalho:

The most intriguing points of view were informed by this opinion that the best way to think about design patterns is not whether your language is object-oriented or not, but more specifically what kind of features it implements and then features sort of become like labels. So a certain language for instance, going back to the original question is Go object-oriented or is it functional? It's neither, it's a very pragmatically designed language. The designers of Go we're not thinking about doing an exemplary object-oriented language, but it has features of object-oriented languages and it also has features of a functional programming languages. So the features are the key I think.

Rebecca Parsons:

Well, I think an interesting part of this too is that as soon as you get out of pure languages, language paradigms are meaningless. But the features that are generally associated with the pure language in a particular paradigm, they do help describe what kinds of things are easy to implement or difficult to implement. And of course we get into this whole question of as long as a language is turning complete, you can write anything in any language.

Rebecca Parsons:

It's just more difficult than others. I've actually written a text editor in Fortran and that's not very easy to do. I wouldn't advise it, but it was the only language that worked on that particular machine at that particular time. And so I think that by talking about these language features, we can start to get to a point of thinking about when would you use the language? And I'll ask you a question that I get asked lots Luciano, is there the perfect language and if so, what is it?

Luciano Ramalho:

Well, the first answer is of course, no. But it's funny because some people like for instance, Paul Graham that is now well known as a venture capitalist with Y Combinator, but he's actually probably one of the few people in the history of mankind that became very rich programming in Lisp. And it's obvious if you read many of his blog posts that he thinks that Lisp is the perfect language and maybe if there is a language that can claim to be the perfect language, it is Lisp because of the fact that it's so extensible because it has syntactic macros. So it's so extensible that you can really... And that's why it's the favorite playground of language theorists, right.

Rebecca Parsons:

I would assume that it's Scheme rather than Lisp, but it's the same general idea.

Luciano Ramalho:

Yes, totally. Yeah.

Alexei Boas:

Yeah, that's great. Also in my view and going back to the paradigm versus label thing, I think thinking about labels instead of paradigms also lends itself better to different programming styles. And even you don't have the ideal language to a task, but using the language in different ways and using the key features to specific tasks that you have. For example, nowadays if you have data intensive applications using vectorized styles make a lot of sense in specific contexts and settings, et cetera. And thinking about labels I guess gives you more flexibility and freedom to think in different mediums depending on the task that you have. So...

Luciano Ramalho:

Oh yeah. And I remember something that Rebecca said about Haskell when we were preparing this... Remember what we were-

Rebecca Parsons:

Yes, I get very frustrated when people emphasize either the strong typing or the pure functional nature of Haskell. But to me the thing that distinguishes Haskell is laziness. And when we think about how to solve problems, solving problems in a lazy language is very, very different than if you have a strict language. There are things that you simply can't readily express without effectively building the construct of laziness into the language if you don't have laziness. And to me just focusing on either the type system aspects or the functional aspects and monads and such of Haskell really misses that truly powerful feature. And I would really love more people to be talking about and thinking about how to exploit laziness particularly in things like data intensive applications.

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, totally. Yeah, and it's interesting because there is another language feature that is kind of associated with laziness, at least it's the way lazy evaluation is implemented there at a low level. That has to do with generators and streams and that's something that's emerging as a popular feature in several languages. And that is being leveraged more and more with another kind of data thing, civil application, which is applications that are dealing with constant streams of data coming in and out. Which is the way that laziness works, but we don't have the same kind of a lazy evaluation in other languages but the underlying constructs, the low lower level constructs for instance, coroutines and so on that allow that to work is becoming increasingly available in other languages.

Alexei Boas:

Well, the ability to express an infinite set with a sheer construct is definitely very useful in specifically in data intensive applications. But then so we mentioned laziness, is that an example of one label for example? So is that what you're talking about or do you have other examples and...

Luciano Ramalho:

Oh yeah, totally. That's a very good example. Another example that is I guess closer to most people is the idea of first-class functions, which is something that for instance, in the Java language it took a long time to arrive. I remember watching a presentation about 10 years ago where somebody said, "Okay, so this is the list of the 10 most popular JVM languages and the only one that doesn't have first-class functions is Java." Because likes of Groovy has, Clojure has, Scala has, Kotlin has and in other languages like Python, Ruby. But anyway, one thing that I went to give as a reference to our readers is to look up a presentation by Peter Norvig who's a professor of computer science at Stanford. He has a presentation deck called design patterns in dynamic languages where he talks about features and how they relate to design patterns.

Luciano Ramalho:

And for instance he says that if your language has first-class functions, then you have to rethink some of the classic design patterns. Like for instance, the strategy design pattern, the command design pattern become much simpler when you can pass around functions and it's something that now we have with Java 8 as well. So that's one example. So first-class function is another label, laziness another label, streams another label, so that's the idea. I think we should start talking more about these principles that are fundamentals that when you understand a principle like that not only you have a better grasp of a specific language that you're using, but then you can make better decisions about the programming styles or design patterns that you can use. And it also helps you a lot when you're going to learn the next language because then you recognize and so okay, so that's that label that I already know and this language also has that so I can apply that.

Rebecca Parsons:

Yeah, I think that's important as well by focusing on the features, what design patterns, how do you use particular design patterns and languages with particular labels. It gets us away from thinking about the syntax of the language. And I've seen so many people who struggle with moving from a language like Java to a language like C# when it shouldn't really be a struggle because these are primarily syntactic differences. Yes, of course the ecosystems are very different, the libraries that are available might vary, but the language itself, they share many of the labels.

Rebecca Parsons:

Now, they've been going in not quite lockstep, C# evolved as a language more quickly for a time than Java did vice versa earlier in its history. But there are a lot of similarities between those languages. And if we focus too much on syntax then we're really boxing ourselves into a language and it makes it more difficult to think about, okay. Well, let's learn Kotlin and let's look at what those language features are and get away from this focus on syntax. Syntax is incredibly important for the ease of writing and reading a language. But if you're going to learn a language, personally I think you should learn it on that label level. And the syntax is just an implementation detail as we are learning a language. It's critical when you're designing a language, but it's an implementation detail when you're learning a language.

Alexei Boas:

Yeah, and I guess the one good thing about labels is that it forces us to think one level down from paradigms at least, right? For example, can we say that object-oriented is a label or would we say that inheritance is a label and then you can have... Or even things like reflection and things like that. So it forces you to look at a lower level and then you can combine them in different ways and once you have an understanding of those basic labels, you can pour the learning or the concepts that you have to different languages. Does it make sense?

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, totally. I think object-oriented maybe is too big as a label because it's usually one of the so-called paradigms, right? But if you think what people mean when they say object-oriented, that's a collection of labels. But sometimes like for instance, let's talk about a label that's probably the first one that occurs when you talk about object-oriented which is inheritance. And it's interesting because there's been a very clear trends away from inheritance as a central mechanism at least implementation inheritance. So even in the design patterns book which is from 94, they have the introduction which is I think is the best part of that book. They only quote two design principles, two object-oriented design principles that the authors propose in that introduction and the two are program to an interface not an implementation and favor object composition, overclass inheritance.

Luciano Ramalho:

And if you think about for instance again Go, which is a modern language designed by people who have a lot of experience designing other languages before Go, it has this object concept you defined types that have methods, receivers and so on. And it has interfaces but it doesn't have inheritance of any kinds. And it actually has a mechanism of composition where when you embed the type in other, methods of the embedded type can appear on the surface of the other one without you having to write code to do that. So the delegation is sort of automatically done. And I actually found a quote that somebody watched Ellen Hollow who is an author of several object-oriented programming books.

Luciano Ramalho:

He said that he watched... He was at a meet up with James Wozniak where somebody asked what is a feature that he would live out if he was to do Java again and he said classes. But then after people stopped laughing, he explained what he means was implementation inheritance. He likes interfaces and interface inheritance but not implementation inheritance, that's it. So something that he said maybe he wouldn't do again. So that's an example of one label that people promote is like the most important feature of object-oriented programming and maybe it's not such a big deal and maybe it's overused and people should start thinking about other labels that are associated with object-oriented programming that are more useful.

Rebecca Parsons:

Yeah, I would definitely agree. I see object-oriented as a collection of labels because it is too big. And when you think about a language like Smalltalk versus a language like Java, how you think about objects are a bit different. And saying that there is one label that... Yes, there are common characteristics, but there are a lot of differences between those languages and so I think it allows us to have a more precise and useful conversation if we say actually object orientation, functional dynamic, all of these are our sets of labels of which you might have different, potentially overlapping sets.

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's useful to think of the sets of labels that our language has instead of focusing on the sets that define a paradigm because that's really not very well defined. But when you think about the set of labels that our language has... So I guess we're kind of in this podcast introducing terminology because we are using the word label over and over again. And what we mean by that is a shortcut for language features like fundamental language feature. But it's cool. Maybe we are inventing this terminology now. So this is what we mean by the acquisition between paradigms and labels, yeah.

Alexei Boas:

And I think I won't resist asking this. Can a language have too many labels? Scala comes to mind so can that happen or?

Luciano Ramalho:

Oh yeah, yeah. I think those are two examples of my opinion languages that went overboard in adopting features. And one consequence of that, that I see people mentioning in large organizations that use those languages is that because the languages are so big and have so many features, people tend to focus on the features that they understand better. And in teams actually developed dialects which are subsets of the language. But then in a larger organization you may have different teams using different dialects which creates problems when you move people around. Have you seen that Rebecca?

Rebecca Parsons:

Yes, although I think even in a simpler language setting you can still have that problem when you have teams that agree if we see a problem like this we are going to use this particular implementation style. But I do think it is more problematic in these languages with too many labels. And I think also that you end up with more power than you necessarily take advantage of. And in my experience, just like if you're using too powerful of a message queue or anything like that, anything where you have more things available than you use, you're introducing drag.

Rebecca Parsons:

It's a form of technical debt and so if you're going to adopt a language like that, you want to adopt it for its full feature set, not just say "Okay Scala looks enough like Java that I'll just write Java code in Scala syntax." You really want to say I'm adopting this language because it gives me things in addition to what I could get if I was using Java. And very often we don't have those kinds of conversations. It was the same thing with C and C++ it was supposed to ease the transition for people writing C into C++ but getting object features and you ended up with a language of that just had everything.

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, and it's interesting because again, talking about Go is a language that is very pragmatically designed and it's a reaction to C++ they say that in some of their design documents. And most complaints that people have about Go, is that it lacks features. Nobody complains that Go has too many features.

Rebecca Parsons:

Now what I will say about Scala though is when you're looking particularly now at a language choice, you're looking at an ecosystem as well and the ecosystem that has been built up around Scala is significant and I think that's something that we really need to take into account as well. There may be more things in the base language than programming language purists like you and I would want but it's got a very powerful ecosystem around it and I think that's something particularly when we think about labels, we might want to extend this notion of language labels to the ecosystems. Is there a ready implementation to support streaming or to support messaging or things of that nature. And that's something that back when we were worrying about COBOL and Fortran nobody ever thought about in fact it really started around C++ with the rich libraries that were built up around C++ when we had to start thinking about language ecosystems.

Luciano Ramalho:

Yeah, and this is the most amazing thing about the Java ecosystem of which a Scala is a part, but it also because of the features that Scala implements it grew the ecosystem in ways that maybe people were just using Java it wouldn't have gone because there were things more difficult to express for instance. Like stream for instance, which is now it feeds back into Java. I agree the ecosystem is super important.

Alexei Boas:

It looks like we could have a separate episode on ecosystems then. Okay, I guess then this brings us to the end of the episode this time. It was great conversation and great to have you with us. Thank you very much for joining.

Luciano Ramalho:

Well, thank you very much Alexei and Rebecca.

Rebecca Parsons:

Thank you both. I've always loved to talk about programming languages.

Alexei Boas:

All right.