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Episode transcript

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[Music]

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Ken Mugrage: Thank you for joining the ºÚÁÏÃÅ Technology Podcast. My name is Ken Mugrage. I'm one of the co-hosts. I'm joined today by Rebecca.

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Rebecca Parsons: Hello, everybody. Rebecca Parsons, CTO Emerita of ºÚÁÏÃÅ and one of the technology podcast co-hosts.

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Ken: And joined today by a guest, Aidan.

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Aidan Donnelly: Hi, everyone. I'm Aidan Donnelly, director of technology platform at Personio. Thank you for having me today.

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Ken: Thanks for joining us, and Chris.

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Chris Ford: I am Chris. I'm the Head of Technology for ºÚÁÏÃÅ Spain.

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Ken: We're here today to talk about platforms, and it's a very large topic, something we've talked about quite a bit. I guess I'm going to start Aidan with you, just for the purpose of today's discussion, what do we mean by platforms? What is a platform? What are we talking about today?

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Aidan: There's a number of different ways you can describe a platform team. Most generally it's an investment by a company and a group of people who are going to deliver something that will help other teams to do their jobs. It's an investment because you can do without a platform team and some companies do, but with a platform team, the company believes it's going to be more beneficial to centralize some aspects of a role rather than to distribute amongst multiple teams.

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In my experience and in my current company, we're a B2B SaaS company, so the platform team owns both the cloud infrastructure and all the tools and processes to keep the infrastructure available and scalable and all the tools and processes which are used by software engineers to get their code onto the platform. The central investment is to give the engineers the best tools to write and build and test and deploy code. If the team does a good job, then the engineering organization is more productive, efficient, and has a higher quality output. Obviously, hopefully less issues arising in production as a result of good work by the platform team.

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Ken: When we talk about ºÚÁÏÃÅ, we put platforms into three general buckets, very generalized. One of them is the business platform like your Ubers and that sort of thing. The next one down is like an API platform where I own a bunch of services and I'm going to average and put them out for other people to use. Then there's the infrastructure pipe or platform where people deploy code. It sounds like you're talking about more the last one there, the infrastructure where your development teams use it. Is that correct?

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Aidan: That's correct. Of course, I'm a technical platform owner, so I'm thinking of the last one more specifically, but also as I mentioned in my introduction, how do you get to the infrastructure, how do you get code onto the infrastructure? The developer experience mission is part of the platform for me as well.

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Ken: I was interested, you wrote a blog on Medium about that, where you described the platform as including the IDE and other things. Chris, what's your take on that? Do you think about those as part of the platform in your day to day?

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Chris: I actually think that focusing on what the platform is made of is a false direction. Aidan earlier mentioned platform. He didn't say it's made of Terraform or it's made of servers, or it's made of what. He said it's an investment, and I think that's actually a really interesting way of approaching it. You could see platform not as a noun, but as a verb, so in the case of the distinction you raised earlier between business platform or internal business platform, they might literally be made of the same stuff. They might have the same business logic. They might, I don't know, provide recommendations, but it's the usage to which those recommendations, for example, a book that is the distinction.

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I think you have to think about what a platform is for. You have to think of platform as a verb, not a noun. When it comes to the IDE, well, yes, I think if it's something that helps to manage the cognitive load of development teams, then it should be considered a platform. I mentioned cognitive load because that's a concept introduced by the Team Topologies book when talking about this kind of responsibility division. I think it's a really helpful thing to get us clear on what we're actually trying to achieve when we have platforms and platform teams.

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Rebecca: You mentioned the phrase developer experience, and we've been alluding to this. I like the focus on experience. I hear sometimes people talk about developer happiness, and nothing like a platform can ensure happiness, but I think focusing on developer experience as a way of saying, "Am I providing the set of tools and such to developers to allow them to be more productive and more effective at delivering?" How would you characterize developer experience? What are the sorts of things that we focus on in terms of developer experience and then how does that manifest itself in these platforms and platform teams? What are they really trying to accomplish to reach this goal of improving developer experience?

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Aidan: I think happiness is certainly an aspect of experience. We do want developers to be happy or to put it a different way, to be satisfied. If they're satisfied, it's an input into them doing a good job, which has outcomes that we can talk about perhaps. You mentioned efficiency, I mentioned quality, those are also aspects of experience because if you're looking at an engineer who has code in production, part of their experience is that it runs smoothly and perhaps they don't get woken up at night when things go wrong.

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Everything that fuels into the end-to-end, smooth running of business code and production is part of the experience. Not to go into analogies too much right away, but if you can imagine like the experience you're having with an IDE or with a feature flag system or with a pipeline that's deploying your code and running tests, also translates to the experience of the end user, but if the engineer is simply happy in doing the first part of their role, that doesn't cover the full compass of experience for us.

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We want them to have a long-term good view of what they've done and to see their work in production, and not to stretch the analogies too much, if you think about a physical tool in the real world, and it could be a screwdriver or a more complicated tool, you want the experience of using that tool to be good, but you also want the thing that's built with that tool to be good, and that I think is the encompassment of developer experience, the overall operation of the software and production is included in that.

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Chris: I think the use of the phrase developer happiness is really interesting because I think ultimately businesses don't employ people just to improve their subjective emotional state. They might want productive people to work for them, and that's great, and probably intended people are more productive, but I think what works for that metaphor in the development sphere is that developers do want to do a good job, developers do want to be productive, so by focusing on that response from developers, it's a reliable proxy for whether they're productive, because to get back to developer experience, my subjective experience as a developer, that's quite a tantalizing profession, but I really, really enjoy being a developer when things go right, when the code works, when a test passes, when the build is green, but my experience is that actually a lot of my day when I'm a developer is when I'm stuck.

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I think more so than other professions, a very large proportion of the time as a developer is spent on various, maybe you could call them yak-shaving activities that aren't the real task that I'm trying to accomplish, and that's where I really think platforms and developer experience comes in because I want to as a developer spend more time solving the problem. I really like solving problems. I get satisfaction both just for the problem itself and for the fact that I've made an impact on the world. There's all sorts of things that pull me away from that.

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Maybe it's that I'm not that great or that interested in configuring network for the service of my production cluster, or maybe it's something about the build system, so if a platform or a platform team or an investment in a platform team, to go back to Aidan's comment, can help me to spend a greater proportion of my day on solving the actual problem, that's a pretty good way for me personally, at least, to improve my happiness as a developer.

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Ken: One of the things that-- I know Aidan, you've talked about this in your blogs about the concept of being close to the money, with a platform team, who are the customers and how do you define that mission and vision? When there's all these things out there, there's the problem-solving, Chris just talked about, that kind of stuff, how do you define mission and vision for a platform team?

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Aidan: What I mentioned being close to the money, it was reminiscing about a time when I was working on a system that was bringing in money and downtime was very easily equitable to value, so you knew that if you kept the platform stable and running, you could equate that to the value of your work. When you're further from the money, when you're deeper down in infrastructure, closer to infrastructure, or maybe when the business isn't reliant on revenue as a close connection to uptime, maybe your customers are paying you monthly and they can tolerate you being down somewhat, that informs how you measure your output as a platform team.

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It also informs how you create a mission and vision for the team. I've done this a number of different ways. When I was working in Amazon and I owned a monitoring system, it was also a platform system. It was a centralized global system for checking for failures in the network. Our first mission statement was along the lines of two metrics called precision and recall. We wanted to make sure that we had all of the information and that we were precise in the alarms that we sent, but that mission statement didn't really resonate with anyone. There were nice metrics and we tried to influence them.

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The mission that I came up with the team was more along the lines of being responsible for the outcome of availability, and in that platform team, that's really where we ended up in terms of saying that we are responsible for the availability of the network as a platform. You can say the same thing in a mission statement for an infrastructure platform team. You can point at the fact that maybe it's not your entire responsibility to keep the platform up and running because if you're dependent on the cloud provider, your availability is dependent on them to some extent.

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You can certainly take ownership of it in your mission statement and do everything you can to identify the availability minutes that you'll save through the projects and through the work that you deliver. I could talk a little bit more about that in one aspect of it. The other way you can define a mission statement, going back to Chris's example, is as a developer, you can be blocked, and that's engineers' hours wasted. That's what we call it. Again, we can measure this.

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We can measure the amount of time engineers are spending on specific tasks, whether it's busy work that they just have to do, like upgrades, dependencies of third-party libraries, it just has to be done, or whether it's something more specific like spending time trying to get a piece of infrastructure up and running using an infrastructure as Code Construct. If we measure how many times that happens, we can multiply that by how long it takes and we can get a figure of engineers' hours saved.

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That equates to, if you multiply that out in the way that I do, at least you can come up with a number of headcounts, say like if you employed people full-time, would it be 5 people or 10 people that are doing that work? I think, Ken, it's a great question. It's a lot of different aspects to the answer, but there are ways that I have found that you can both express a mission for the team and to also quantify how you're succeeding in that mission.

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Chris: What I really like, Aidan, about what you said there is that you're defining missions that it's valuable to be excellent at. I think the big trap of platform and infrastructure team is to be seen as something that is either or not there, and if it's there, that's fine, no one cares, and if it's not there, it's a disaster. Now, the problem with that is that applies to all sorts of commodified aspects of the business, so the desk chairs need to be there. If they're not there, it's a problem, everyone stops working.

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We've got to work out to install the chairs, we put them back, and now we have them and no one pays attention, because maybe, let's say, to continue the example of desk chairs, maybe when economic times are good, it's worthwhile to buy really comfortable, really nice chairs for people, but then if times are bad, maybe we'll just go with the simplest thing possible because it's not core to what we're doing as a business.

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I think defining your mission in terms of something that is of value to be excellent at allows you to be excellent. It gives you permission to do a really good job, and to be seen as a hygiene factor for the business is really a route to being seen as something that costs should be cut just above the point of failure, which is not really a respectful position for platform people to be in, and certainly not a comfortable one.

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Ken: Let's take the chair thing perhaps a bit too far. If I put really, really, really comfortable chairs in one side of the organization and not very comfortable ones over by the coffee machine, people might actually end up further away from the coffee machine. In platforms, we talk about golden path or paved road. It's not, "Oh, developers, you must use this infrastructure platform." It's making it attractive to them. Aidan, do you have comments about that? How do you manage that, make it a place that people want to be as opposed to something where they're told to do?

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Aidan: I have experience with golden path narratives, and we have a document that has a very nice picture of the golden path with lovely green grass either side of it. I'll come back to that in a second because it's relevant to what I'm going to say next. What we found is through the description of that golden path, what we're saying to engineers is, "If you follow and use these tools, we will give you our best support, so you will have a good experience.

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We're using these tools because these are the ones we recommend, and if you get stuck," as Chris was saying, "we'll help you because we know exactly what to do. We know exactly how to unblock you." That's the golden path. What we found more recently is that people, to use the chair analogy, are sitting where you don't want them to sit because they just prefer to sit there, and no matter how nice the chair is, they're just going to sit where they want to sit. In reality, that means that they're using tools that are on the silver path or the bronze path, and we found it difficult to influence that decision because it's not a very hard rule that we're setting.

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I was joking with some of my team saying we need to change that picture and have 10-foot drops either side of the golden path. In other words, there's no other silver path to fall into. It's just a straight cliff or something like that. I think we're coming around to this idea that we need to be a little bit more opinionated about the golden path in order to drive the best outcomes and to centralize our efforts in the best possible way.

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Rebecca: I think to some extent too, the way to do that or a way to do that requires a great deal of communication between the platform team and the engineers, because from a customer perspective, the features of the platform, the customers of those features are in fact the engineers, and if there are engineers that are going off the golden path just because you don't want to make them miserable but it's like there really isn't any reason for you to do that, but there are sometimes people stray off the golden path because there is a reason. "We are the first people within the organization that need to use a graph database and there's no graph database capabilities."

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Having that conversation with the platform team and understanding that, I think is important. I draw the analogy to many, many moons ago we had all of these architects who were going to do reusable components and yet they never talked to the people who might actually be using the reusable components to find out what they needed. How do you facilitate that conversation around when people aren't on the Golden Path and understand is this something that is just "I don't like the way you did it" versus "Well, actually, there's a feature that I need that isn't currently provided on the platform"? Can you talk a little about how that works in practice?

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Aidan: Absolutely. I think I mentioned the bronze path and the silver path. One of our ways of dealing with this was to say we absolutely recognize that, first of all, people want to innovate, and that should be a good thing, so you should be allowed to check whether a tool or a language is better or a graph database is needed. Yes, sometimes it's just a requirement that comes out of nowhere, your company might make an acquisition of another company that has a different technology set, so you can't ignore that, you have to support it. I think the way, again, I'm currently thinking about this is to bring an element of operational readiness to the discussion.

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Where I'd like to draw the line is where you can innovate and we want to see new solutions to existing problems or better solutions to existing problems, but you also have to acknowledge that the golden path includes operational support for that technology, and if you're going to innovate, you also have to show that it's supported in production, that it's got good availability, that you've got things like [unintelligible 00:19:15] in place, and that it's a proven technology that we can rely on. Then you can graduate up to the golden path, and if we take that decision jointly, we'll support that, and that's a good thing.

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The golden path is not-- I was going to say written in stone, but what's in that document is not written in stone. We actually have little arrows that go up and down and say, "Here's how we're thinking. This is something that we're going to invest in and we're currently going to bring it up to that golden standard." Or, "Here's something that we're thinking is something to be phased out," so we're giving the indication to the engineers where we think something is headed.

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Chris: One thing I think it's worth celebrating is that if you're a product steward of a platform, you have really privileged access to your customer, right? Many product owners have to speculate, or if they want to actually talk to one of their customers, have to go through some focus group mechanism, and then there's problems with artificiality, et cetera. If you are providing an internal platform to a company, you probably can talk to them over messaging system of choice, or you can email them or you can set up a conversation.

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I think actually sometimes people are a little bit too reticent to just reach out and ask someone because they agree you should apply product stewardship to internal platforms, but you don't need to put up this wall or this barrier that doesn't need to exist when you're in the same organization with the same mission. That's actually a great privilege. The curse of it is that measuring of business value that Aidan mentioned is harder because ultimately you're providing services to developers who provide services to end customers. The blessing is that those internal customers are so much more accessible. They speak similar language to you, you can ask them about Java and infrastructure and they can answer about Java and infrastructure. That's actually, I think, a really joyful part of product stewardship of a platform that people should take advantage of.

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Ken: Switching gears just a little bit, we talked a little bit about the outcomes and that sort of thing. Nothing you've written about, Aidan, is the best practices leading to outcomes. At ºÚÁÏÃÅ, we call them what we call our sensible defaults, because we work for a variety of clients, we don't think we don't use single best, we say, "These are the sensible defaults. They make the most sense in most cases." How do you do that in an order in an organization? How do you actually get those to align so we are all measuring the same thing and get those measurable benefits?

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Aidan: Yes, let me pick the availability side of the answer I'm going to give, because if you start with a business objective like an availability SLA, three nines, or four nines, and you take a period of time like it's a month or a quarter, you end up with a number of minutes that you have as a budget that you can be unavailable for, otherwise, you're not fulfilling your assurance to the customer. Starting with that, if you've failed your SLA, you can figure out how many minutes you need to save, and the way I have done this in the past is to look at all of the incidents that have happened.

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We're pretty lucky in my current company, we have a reasonably good hygiene of keeping a good documentation on incidents, and also the time to detect and time to recover. When we look back at a number of incidents, we can see where we've lost those precious minutes, and we can see the commonalities in the causes of those minutes being lost, and that enables us to think up and prioritize projects that are targeted to save those minutes. If you can imagine, let's say, for example, we look at a number of outages and 60% of them could have been prevented by the use of feature flags, then we take a project to say, "Well, we have a feature flag solution.

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We just need to make sure that people are aware of it, they know what can be put under a feature flag, and maybe we'll write a little bot to remind people when they're publishing a merge request, but there's no feature flag associated with this, and maybe it would be a good idea." You can make a direct connection between what you're intending to do, which is to save availability minutes, and then you just wait another period of time and you look back and you say, "Well, how many instances of that root cause happened after I applied that project, after I tried to diminish that?"

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That's currently how I'm approaching the problem of measuring the outcome of something you're trying to achieve. That example, feature flags, is a real one because everyone can agree that feature flags are a good thing, but prior to us looking at the outages, there was no reason for us to know how much more we should do in that area. The tool existed, it was on the golden path, the documentation said to use it, but something extra was needed in order to drive the outcome that we wanted.

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Ken: Chris, if I could, building on the same thing. I know as a engineering manager, there's lots of practices that we highly advocate. They are our sensible defaults, peer programming, test-driven development, that sort of thing. What's the responsibility of the developer developing the application for uptime? How do we manage that? How do we make engineering rigor meet these same goals?

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Chris: Yes, I think that's an interesting question. First of all, I think using a platform as a way of nagging developers into doing a good job is perilous, so I think like that path to training up developers to do a good job, to having the capabilities to knowing how to guide good tests or clean code or so on, it can be really tempting to use the platform as a vector to teach people about things because the platform is omnipresent, but it's a little bit dangerous because you don't want to introduce that kind of element of resentment where people feel like the platform is telling them what to do rather than enabling them.

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I think that said, that really crisp division of responsibility that the job of the platform is to put tools into the developer's hands and then all the other things that you might do to in a developer community to think about how to spread good practices, et cetera, need to be in place. One exception I might say though is that like the reason why Aidan was able to give such a clear answer was that there was a common ubiquitous language for uptime, for availability that he's tracking. He's able to have a conversation across a wide variety of teams because we are speaking the same language.

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I think actually that is one area where clarity and consistency really is a high leverage activity to a greater extent than implementation. I guess you probably talked about this on other podcasts, but the four key metrics, I guess it's the five key metrics now with availability being there as well, is something that really gives a common language. That can allow a platform team to understand what's going on with development teams.

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It can allow development teams to know how they're doing relative to norms either inside the company or the industry, and it can help people not talk across purposes. In general, I think you get 80% of the value with 20% of the effort, if as a leader or as a manager you focus on the interface rather than the implementation, and definitions of metrics and ways to measure what's going on is some of the highest leverage interface management you can do, so focus on that would be my suggestion.

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Aidan: I just pick up on that, Chris, and maybe it didn't come across, but the two missions of the platform as I see them, the first is the developer experience, as we talked about, and that is trying to make engineers happier and to be able to do their work in easier way, and that's a really good thing, but ultimately, the greater mission is to the end users of the system, and that's why I spoke about availability as being something that it's harder for engineers to hear that they need to do or use a tool better or use a tool more to the extent that it's meant to affect outcomes like availability. Ultimately, that's a slightly harder conversation that you talked about as nagging the developers. I know exactly what you mean. It's a delicate balance to draw because you don't want to be dictating to engineers. They're very capable and intelligent people, but I see a greater responsibility to the end user who's relying on the software to keep running, so just to make that distinction.

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Chris: Yes, and I hope it was clear, I wasn't referring to your particular experience with that because I think you can tell from the way you're describing, but I think actually the first book I'd read if I took over a platform department might be Team Topologies. The second book I might reread might be Nonviolent Communication. In the sense that this kind of question about how you state your intentions clearly, state your near needs clearly, how you offer something to another group of people rather than the pushing on it in a way that activates defensiveness, I think is a really vital part of managing a platform, and I think people who think that the only qualification to managing a platform is technical intelligence are really likely to be into a hard fall if they don't also have excellent emotional intelligence, because they can be the best person in the world at crafting a technical artifact, but if they're not good at working within the human system, it's not likely to deliver the outcomes that it's intended to.

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Rebecca: I think one of the issues too, and this is, again, a tension that we often see between people who are focused on delivery of end-user value and people who are responsible overall for the broader estate and things like availability and recoverability and such. There is a tension there because it can be from a, say time to market perspective, more effective to do something the wrong way. There is that balance between when is it the right decision to do something the wrong way initially, this is the whole technical debt discussion, but I think it's in some ways relevant here is with a platform, you can go so far as to make the wrong way, perhaps less destructive, maybe because of the security defaults that you make sure there are, many things like that. Fundamentally, there is still that tension. In your experience, Aidan, what are the right kind of forums for resolving those tensions?

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Aidan: I think first and foremost, the platform team, which is figuratively in the engine room of the ship, say, needs to be very aware of the business, what's happening on the top deck. They need to be aware and draw a connection between what they're doing and what the business and what the end users want. What I mean by that is that the decision choices that you have in terms of doing something quickly and perhaps incorrectly or not to best practice versus waiting and doing it more rigorously and taking a longer time over it, really should depend on what the business is, what the business of the company is and what the end users want.

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You can take risks sometimes that are calculated to get a product to market quicker or to get a feature in front of customers quicker if you're also aware of the potential downsides. What comes into the equation is, for example, the ability to detect issues in production quickly and to revert them or roll them back. If you can do that within minutes and you're very actively looking at, for example, a release that might be a little bit risky, then that adds into the decision-making factor. If you have a one-way door and you're doing something that might corrupt data or leak data, that's obviously something you take a little bit longer on because your customers-- well, pretty much every application is going to want to avoid that.

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You can imagine in a, let's say, for example, a business system, some things are time critical and need to be available all the time or users are very much going to be affected and other things if they're down, might be possible to come back and redo later, so a user might be frustrated for a period of time, but they're not blocked in doing their job, they're just delayed. I think the point I'm making is that the platform engineers and platform leadership need to be very aware of the business in order to make those decisions.

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Ken: Platforms many years ago were a single thing, I had a box I was going to put my software on. Now some stuffs in a public cloud, this is in a private cloud, and here's a SaaS provider and so forth, and so it's a much more complicated thing. Where do you draw the line on owning the platform? Who owns what? Is it the developers because they're using this SaaS thing? Is it the platform team because it's part of the business? Where do you draw those lines and how do you look at updating those and keeping those fresh?

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Aidan: Great question and a tough answer I think. There's a couple of examples that I would give where the difference between infrastructure and application or service is not very clear. If you take a well-known example of a relational database, it's a piece of infrastructure, you can automate it's creation, you can scale it automatically, you can monitor it in uniform ways, but the logic inside it, what's in the database tables and how they're connected together and how they're queried is application logic. Who owns the problem if there's a slow query that appears over time and there's a root cause to that? It could be that a table is growing or there's a missing index.

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Is that a platform problem that should be solved by platform teams constantly monitoring and fixing well-known relational database issues, or is that the ownership of the application teams, the product development teams to find and fix those issues and to maintain something like that? We've lent into that space in my platform team in having people that are more knowledgeable of the database schemas and noticing problems, reviewing issues, finding root causes of things like slow queries.

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Databases are sort of a well-known technology now, but if you take a new technology, something like Kafka, again, it's a piece of infrastructure that can be deployed and scaled in a well-understood way, but the logic of what it's doing is not as well known in the industry. It's not something in my view that every engineer can take a look into and understand what's happening inside a Kafka system. The line can move sometimes closer towards the application and the service ownership, but sometimes you have a resource issue or a knowledge issue that you can't really service a piece of infrastructure because you really don't understand what's inside it, and that can lead to the line sometimes moving back and forth in the conversation, to give you one example.

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Chris: I think reality is messy. When things are going wrong, they're usually going wrong in a way that we didn't intend things to go because otherwise we wouldn't call it going wrong, and so there's something unknown or unexpected or problematic about the situation, so in reality, you hope in the end that human beings talk to each other to figure stuff out when they need to. I think the ideal is that the platform team understands with clarity what service they're offering, and if what service they're offering is not functioning correctly, they should be able to tell that and correct it.

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If they're promising to provide some kind of abstraction layer on compute being provided and that's not a compute that's supposed to be provided, is not provided in the way it should be, okay, that means that the contract that the platform has with the user is not fulfilled. Then if it's used in a way that is problematic, so the platform is working as coded or as described or as intended, but it's being misused, then my idea would be that the development team following that you build it, you run it, [unintelligible 00:36:59] would be responsible, then they would also be able to rely on the platform, not just as a technical artifact, but as a group of human beings, they can consult, that they can have a shoulder to cry on and they can ask for expert advice.

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Now the trouble is reality, like I was saying, is messy, and you cannot always rely on an abstract definition of responsibility. Some kind of matrix somewhere to say exactly what team is responsible for what's been going wrong. I think ultimately success is when the development team is able to exercise their discretion, their autonomy, without being overloaded either by cognitive load or by things happening in a technical domain that they have no expertise on.

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Ken: Great, thank you. Not surprisingly, like many other things, it comes down to the humans, which is a good thing actually because mostly we want to do a good job. Again, thank you Aidan and Chris for joining us. It's always great to hear how other folks address these, and Rebecca, for co-hosting. Thank you, listeners, and look forward to next time.

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Rebecca: Thank you.

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Aidan: Thank you.

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Chris: Thanks very much.

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