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Podcast Transcript

Rebecca:

Hello and welcome to the ºÚÁÏÃÅ podcast. My name is Rebecca Parsons and I'm the chief technology officer for ºÚÁÏÃÅ. In today's special episode, I sit down with danah boyd, principal researcher at Microsoft research, founder of Data and Society and visiting professor at New York University's interactive telecommunications program. We discuss everything from the early days of online content moderation to bias in AI. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as danah and I did.

Rebecca:

Hello, danah. I'm thrilled to get a chance to talk to you.

danah:

Thanks for having me.

Rebecca:

You just spoke to us about bias and data and misuse and use. Let's start first with what you have learned in dealing with education systems and what that actually implies for businesses and executives.

danah:

One of the blessings and curses of having been with social media since its earliest days was the ability to see the good, bad, and ugly of how everybody is using these systems. I will never forget in the earliest days of trying to do content moderation on social media, we originally were just like, well, if we let anybody post their thoughts on the internet, it'll be amazing. They'll share such sophisticate ideas, it'd be great. And the first day they're like, "Oh porn, why are people posting porn?" And of course people are going to post blog.

danah:

And then you start in these moments where you try to challenge things. I remember when AOL was concerned that people were talking about anorexia in a positive sentiment on their platform and they decided that they would ban that term. They would just make it so nobody could post about anorexia, about anything, prevention or participation or anything. It took less than 24 hours for people to start talking about their best friend Anna and just being like, "Oh, I had a great day with Anna and it was wonderful. And we talked for a long time." And that's encoded messages.

danah:

So one of the things I've taken after years of looking at all of these misuses, reappropriation of technology is that we have to think not simply of what we designed the technology to do, or how we think we will integrate it for all of the good things we imagine or we want, but we have to constantly question and reflect on all of the other incentives of every other actor in this ecosystem. And the more complex our systems get, the more that we rely on data, the more that we integrate technology, the more we are going to see different kinds of adversarial manipulations and just plain bias and limitations of our systems. And that just requires a new way of thinking.

Rebecca:

And do you think people who actually design these systems or have the vision for the product, it doesn't feel like their best place to figure out how it could be misused because they're so focused on the positive good. So how do we go about protecting against that when we're not often in a position really to be able to understand how it's going to be misused?

danah:

I think that's completely accurate. I think that when you think in terms of product, you imagine potential and long ago we also figured out that you don't necessarily imagine profitability and business. And so we figured out long ago that you need a set of different actors with different responsibilities sitting in that C suite. You need co-founders, you need somebody who has a financial mindset, somebody who has a legal mindset. We're at a point right now where we've elevated the chief security officer, the CSO, in some organizations and less so in others.

danah:

I think we have to build a structure organizationally where we're thinking positive and negatively at the same time in a sophisticated way. And the thing from a product place is that the most sophisticated product people will not be paralyzed by hearing the misuse. They'll see it as an opportunity for innovation. Like, "Oh, okay, if I know people are going to do that, then I have to do these three things." And you're like, bingo. And that ability to innovate and co-construct a technical system is going to be so essential because these technologies are situated within social environments, so they have to be socio-technical from the get go.

Rebecca:

And do you think that this is the moral equivalent of a chief security officer or does it have to be a range of people? In order to look at this from different lenses, I'm thinking college students versus people of color versus Muslims. Do we need to bring people with those different perspectives or do you think we can learn to channel some of those different perspectives?

danah:

My belief is that organizations have to own these issues. And the question is how they own them well. It can be owned in the boardroom, it can be owned in the C suite. There are different ways in which both of those work, but owning it is not necessarily just the final voice on it. So it's not just about having one person who is being the moral authority, if you will. It's about having somebody who can build the processes to hear and listen and think in a more sophisticated way.

danah:

And that means being the person who channels those voices, not just the person who owns it, but the person who owns it owns the processes to make certain that that happens. And that's what I think we're missing right now because right now when it's too spread out, nobody owns the processes for integrating that into the decision making frameworks. In the same way that a CFO owns financial structures but doesn't own all the decisions in the business, right, and in fact, when you build a business with a CFO, owns every aspect of business, you've got a bigger problem.

Rebecca:

Yes, particularly when the own technology.

danah:

Right.

Rebecca:

And really, that lands badly.

danah:

So it's more than about have you have somebody owns it for the processes and build the structures to hear. Especially to your point, depending on what topics we're talking about, diversity of experience, diversity of background are so critical in making certain that you think beyond your world.

danah:

This is also one of the reasons why I'm glad that even in the security space that we've moved away from thinking that an organization can solve security themselves. Even the simplest move of moving to bug bounties because when you move to bug bounties and you build the process to involve external actors in trying to mess with your system, when you build red team structures, you start to realize that living inside your organization, you'll never see things in a way that an outsider sees you. And so like how do you bring the outside in constructively.

Rebecca:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), which is really just an extension of what we've learned along the way in user experience design and customer experiences. We have to look at it from our end user, our customer's perspective as opposed to our own.

danah:

Absolutely. And as you know, getting UX into a conversation wasn't overnight.

Rebecca:

No, it was not. And it's amazing how many people feel like they understand until you go out and ask the questions. And people have a way of having different ideas than we want them to have, don't they?

danah:

But that's also where you... I think the parallels there are actually quite elegant because you think your user, I know how to use this, so everybody must use it the way I use it. And as you know from user experience, like that's not at all with a discipline is about. And the same unfortunately happens with ethics and moral thinking, which is like, well, I mean the values are very clear. Doesn't everybody understand the values? And it's like nope.

Rebecca:

That's not [crosstalk 00:06:51]

danah:

And I think you're right that maybe that's a better paradigm than even thinking about some of the security because at least with security, like classic security, people don't think immediately like, oh, I know security. In fact, they're usually be like, "That's somebody else's job." So I think you're right that there's something about that UX narrative as part of this frame.

Rebecca:

So we know AI systems that are trained on data respond and encode the biases that exist in that data. People don't intend the systems to be biased. And in fact, sometimes they work to make them unbiased. But how do we actually understand the level of a bias and how can we mitigate it and whose responsibility is it really to govern these? And how should we look at that process? Please don't tell me we need the bias police.

danah:

One of the challenges about everything that involves humans is that everything is biased. And so part of it is realizing that we are never going to achieve the ideal even as we work consistently for the ideal. And the result is that it makes us start to think about like how do we set up the processes to constantly improve rather than solve for. And that's where, when it comes to bias in an algorithmic system, part of it is to just be constantly interrogating and being reflexive.

danah:

And the irony for me as having a double background in computer science and anthropology is that I find that both of those are really critical for this conversation. Anthropology brings this idea of reflexivity, that you are position in an environment is constantly shaping, shifting, influencing. And so that's a mindset that have people have to look for that. When you sit down with anybody doing data work and watch them through their cleaning processes, they are trying desperately to deal with, what they will talk about as anomalies, right? But giving them a framework for thinking about anomalies becomes really important. So, that's where I think training is very viable.

danah:

Now governance happens at different levels institutionally. Part of it is, is that the governance processes in an organization. So start by asking questions and be like, "Are you doing your own internal accounting? Are you able to articulate the limitations where that data can and can't be used?" It's also where you start to see opportunities to make that transparent. So like, I've been having this conversations around GitHub and what does it mean to articulate in a repository about what the limitations of this particular algorithmic system can do given the constraints on data. If the data has these features, this will not work, or this will actually reinforce it as you never intended to. So how do we actually start to build that into the process? And that's where I see this opportunity at the technical layer.

danah:

In terms of broader scale governance, I think this is the question of how then are these systems being applied? And so when I look, for example, in [inaudible 00:09:36] of criminal justice, criminal justice is an imperfect process, always has been, and that's one of the reasons why we build checks and balances into it. That's why we build even due process. And so I think that there's a very rich and open question of can a system allow for the necessary forms of due process that we expect? If not, maybe it can't be implemented yet, and maybe there are domains and areas where we're just not ready. No matter what, we're not ready for it or where we have to integrate it into a process that actually can be interrogated.

danah:

And that's where I think domain specificity comes into play and the governance processes are going to look different and for better and worse, I think that there are going to be algorithm police in specific contexts, and there are ranges where I think that that just becomes more important, particularly when we're talking about the stakes being so high when we're talking about life and freedom.

Rebecca:

Yeah, it's one thing for them to get a recommendation wrong. It's another thing to make a decision in a criminal justice context.

danah:

Absolutely. And being able to understand that distinction, and this is what worries me of using code that's done for earthquake detection and thinking that that can be reused for predictive police say without really questioning some of the foundations of how those analytics work, what that data looks like, what the reinforcement processes are for the learning system.

danah:

We actually have to step back and say, oh, maybe, maybe not. And the other thing I think is really important is what level of maturity does a system have to have before it's implemented at scale? So I love talking to NASA engineers because they know that they have one shot. When that robot goes up into space, yes, they can do some things from a distance. But sitting on Mars, they're not going to be able to toy with that hardware and the way that they may want to. And so that has provided a level of sophisticated thinking where they understand the ramifications. And I think that we have to treat certain domains in [inaudible 00:11:25].

danah:

At the end of the day, you get a lousy ad, oh darn, but I don't want to be sitting back here 20 years from now being like, oh, just like that forensic's thing, we got that algorithm thing wrong and a lot of people went to jail. I don't want that to be the Innocence Project's work for the next 20 years.

Rebecca:

Well, and also when you think about, as you say, the feedback loops. If you do start with something that you don't understand and does have that bias in something like the criminal justice context, you get reinforcement of this bias. How much understanding do you think the public, the government, the criminal justice system needs to have of these algorithms before they can actually tackle problems like this?

danah:

So they need a level of expertise surrounding them, right? I don't expect a lawyer to understand every detail of the mathematics, just like I don't expect them to understand every detail of the forensic science. But I do expect them to have processes in place that allow them to incorporate that expertise into the system. I also believe that it's really important that the processes are in place for people who don't have that level of knowledge, not to suddenly become experts. I actually think that's where we reach a different danger, but how can they be supported effectively?

danah:

So take for example another domain of decision making, does everybody need to have the level of medical experience of their doctor in order to interact with their doctor? When we set that up, that's dangerous. Do they need to be able to ask questions? Yes. Do the doctors need to be able to share whatever information? Do we need to create a better bedside manner where people are actually able to articulate what those trade offs look like and the consequences? Absolutely.

danah:

What we have right now in medicine is a moment where doctors have been socialized into, "I will tell you what this is." Even though all of us know the tiniest bit about science and it was all probabilistic and when they come in and saying, "This is what the disease is, this is what you do." People immediately go to the internet and then they self-diagnose and then they're off on a totally different plan of [inaudible 00:13:20] and you've created a trust rupture and that trust rupture is devastating.

danah:

So the response from a doctor is to say, "Okay, here's what I know. Here are the set of different possibilities. Here's what you're going to find on the internet of a whole range of possibilities. Here's why I'm going to rule those ones out or say they're lower probabilities. Here's how I'm going to walk you through this and can we address this together? Because you're experiencing symptoms that I can't feel and I need your ability to articulate those. I'm looking at other mechanisms of evidence and how do we do this as a co-construction." And that is about changing the power dynamics.

danah:

And I use medicine as an example because generally speaking, you're hard pressed to find a doctor who doesn't want their patient to be healthy, and you're hard pressed to find a patient who's not trying to figure out how to be healthy by the best means possible. The power dynamics look different in a criminal justice environment, right, where it's adversarial, and so then how do you build the right structures so that you get the right, shall we call it defense, that you have the expertise around you. Right now we're not even doing that for the basics of law, let alone technology, and that's where for me the technology becomes such a tool of the state in an abusive way and that worries me to no end.

danah:

So that's where I feel like the innovations are much more likely to come in fields like medicine in the short term, then it feels like criminal justice, which is why I'm okay with saying let's just outlaw this until we can actually do it better. I'm okay with that in criminal justice right now.

Rebecca:

And if we look outside of criminal justice, what kind of rights do you think people have in understanding the basis on which some of these AI and learning systems, the basis they use for their decisions, like a credit score or like a loan application, things of that nature. We'll leave criminal injustice out because I think it is more fraud.

danah:

Credit's probably an interesting example to go down, because again in the 1970s the debates around the FICO scores were so intense and the idea was like, "Oh well, we'll just let you know and be able to ask questions of this." It didn't stop the prejudice. In fact, it actually reified it. And so one of the worries for me about transparency without mechanisms of accountability and without accountability to a particular value system is that transparency becomes performative as opposed to actionable.

danah:

So the question for me is sort of like, okay, what is the value that we've all agreed to? That's in many ways the governance standard. So is the value for credit that everybody is equitable under what terms? Can we agree upon those terms and what are the ramifications? Then once we agree upon those terms, how do we hold the agents of decision making accountable? What kind of meaningful standing do does anybody have? If you don't have standing before the legal bodies that are holding us, then transparency is just infuriating.

danah:

Once you have the mechanisms of accountability, then you have transparency in the question is to home. So is it individual, do I expect you to become an expert on whatever particular statistical models you're using? No. So then the question is who does that on your behalf? And that's where we turn to civil society organizations that have to get built up. And it's where I look at things like a privacy policy. Let's be honest, that is not about the consumer at all. That is not about a person. That is about competing legal entities, where hopefully some of them are able to compete on behalf of constituents, consumers, users, people. And if that is not a rich infrastructure, then it's just performative.

danah:

So I feel the same way with algorithmic systems. Let's also be honest that most of the systems, the engineers can't explain how they're working, and that's more than anything right now what I think we need do to make transparent. It's like we don't know. We don't know why that works. Obviously we can talk about that with neural nets, but across a lot of ML, we're just like, it seems to be a good fit given training data, and yeah, it's prioritizing these features. We don't even know what those features mean.

danah:

And that's where I worry that people as we get obsessed with creating accountability in the wrong ways, people will just make those features harder to interpret. Which is where I'm also very interested in advances of interpretability and explainability in machine learning and that's where it's a good reminder. It's like we're the tip of a field making effort as opposed to something where it's like, oh, the computer science have this and the public doesn't.

Rebecca:

Well, let's turn to something more positive. Where are you most optimistic about the impacts that these technologies, big data, AI and machine learning, can have on people in society?

danah:

I start by saying that I'm a scholar above all else. I believe in learning and there is nothing more complex than humans and the societies we create. And so to the degree that we are using every information around us to try to learn, to try to be more just, to try to find ways of making this world better. That's exciting. And that's where I look to many of the engineers turned philanthropists, and that's exactly what they're running around doing, and can we solve X, Y, Z? Interesting problem. Can we change the dynamics of mosquitoes? Right? You're just like, whoa, that's awesome. Can we help people get access to more information? And that's where you have complexities that are historical, right?

danah:

Carnegie was one of the great barons who pushed for libraries. He was also a bastard, unquestionably. And so we have to live with these dynamics simultaneously. So for me, when I look at the possibilities of medicine, the possibilities of trying to understand poverty, our understanding of poverty is a modern day phenomenon. What can we do to remedy it? What does it mean to communicate? When I talked to my grandfather about what war looked like in the forties or what it meant for him to not be able to communicate with family and the changes. That's so amazing.

danah:

So for me, I think part of it is I start with such a love of these technologies, but I don't believe that you can develop those technologies in a societally beneficial way if you don't understand their misuses. And I think that's the shift from when it's esoteric to when it's mainstream. I grew up in a world of social media where those of us who were in the internet in those days were self-identified geeks, freaks and queers. Right? And I claimed all three. And it was like, it was home, and it's now mainstream.

danah:

And I think that many of us naively thought that when it went mainstream, it would just bring the values and norms of all of us on the outside forward. It didn't, it never would have. And it doesn't mean that it's all horrible. It means that we are forced to grapple with humanity. It means that we built international systems and now we're forced to grapple with global governance.

danah:

And I think that's where, for me, it's precisely the love of these technologies and the potential of them to solve really hard problems, to augment human processes in brilliant ways. That is why I think we need to get our heads wrapped around how these things can be misused, because otherwise we are going to throw the baby away with the bath water and I don't want that.

Rebecca:

There's such potential to make human lives better if we can just accept the reality of what we're dealing with.

danah:

Yeah. And I think we also have to understand that there's never been a tool in history that has been designed to make human lives better that somebody hasn't used to oppress, always, always, always. And that's why human governance, societal governance, is part of a technology conversation, whether or not we want it to be.

Rebecca:

Well, thank you very much.

danah:

Thank you.

Rebecca:

Thanks for listening to this episode of the ºÚÁÏÃÅ podcast. Be sure to rate us and subscribe to us on whatever your podcast platform of choice is. Thank you.