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Episode transcript

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Neal Ford: Hello, and welcome to the ºÚÁÏÃÅ Technology Podcast. I'm one of your regular hosts, Neal Ford. And I'm joined today by another of our regular hosts, Rebecca.

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Rebecca Parsons: Good morning, everybody. Rebecca Parsons, one of your other regular hosts. And we are joined by two colleagues today. So Bharani, would you like to introduce yourself first?

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Bharani Subramaniam: Yes. Thanks for having me here. I'm Bharani Subramaniam, one of the heads of tech in India.

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Rebecca: And Madhu?

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Madhu Podila: Hi, this is Madhu. I'm a data strategist based out of India.

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Neal: Great. Well, thank you for joining us today. And today, we're — our industry is rife with acronyms. And today, the entire title of our podcast is just two acronyms together: SQL ETL. So let's talk about — this is actually something that came up as a too complex to blip topic, I believe, on our previous radar meeting, which was the seed for talking about this subject. So let's talk about SQL ETL and start by defining what these acronyms mean and what are we actually talking about in this podcast?

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Bharani: We all know SQL. I don't think I need to introduce SQL to our listeners. So I think someone told me that SQL is probably one of the best or the most widely adopted DSLs in the world right now because it is — you don't realize it's a DSL, but it's actually — you can do quite a lot with SQL nowadays. So what's interesting is the usage of SQL in ETL has gone up, right? ETL stands for extract, transform, and load: So you basically, if you have two systems, and you need to connect them together, these two systems have been built over time, they have different internal representations of the data, so you would take a dump and then transform it, usually outside your database, and then load it back into the structure that you expect to have in your system. But SQL is not used in ETL mostly. You would use some other tool like Talend, Informatica, or other, even Excel, to do the transformation, and then finally load them with the SQL script. So ETL was mostly in the load of the ELT than the transformation.

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Neal: So two quick things, first, you used another acronym when you were defining our acronym, which is DSL, which is domain-specific language, which you're contending that SQL is, in fact, a domain-specific language, and it certainly can be. So, that's the first one. And the second is, can you give us an example of the kind of transform you're talking about here? So you extract data, you transform it, and then load it back in. So what's the purpose of this transformation? What's an example of some reason to do a transformation like that?

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Bharani: Yeah, so I did talk about two systems. Usually, the first system is a transactional system, so this can be your order entry or an online shopping cart service. So those are transactional systems. And then, you might have a data warehouse or an analytical system where you want to make some BI reports and do some intelligence on your transaction data. If you are connecting these two systems, the internal structure of your data, you've organized it for a transactional use case. So if you have to — if I take a step back, you need to change the shape of the data so that you can do efficient analytics on top of it. And that's the part of transformation. So people traditionally had a star schema in the warehouses whereas more normalized schema or something different on their transactional systems and hence transform as you can think of shifting the shape of data to fit for your purpose. And that's traditionally done outside SQL, is what we're starting this conversation with.

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Rebecca: Well, and one question I have always had about ETL is when you listen to your description of what that transform phase is, the term that always comes to my mind is data migration. And data migration is — it's very easy to define and incredibly hard to do. So I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but can you talk a little bit about why this is something that you can do over and over and over again, which is what you have to do as you — is it because the data is current, and therefore, you don't have those little landmines that we always have with data migration? But that's always the thing that pops into my mind when we talk about ETL, is, why doesn't this break all of the time?

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Bharani: Of course. Madhu, you wanted to add something?

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Madhu: Yeah, I think what Bharani talked about is right. You have operational data, end of the day, you need to make sense of that to make business decisions. And you cannot put a lot more queries on the operational system; it's not inefficient to have analytical queries. This is where you take out the data from an operational system and try to shape it in a form where you can have run analytical queries so that you can effectively make business decisions. And this is not a one-time. So there are — transactions keep coming. Your business is continuously operating. You need to continuously capture the new transactions and analytical queries and continuously run on the newer and latest data on historical data. I think that is the reason you need to continuously do this process all the way.

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Bharani: So I'm going to respond to what Rebecca said. So when you have some kind of migration, you have well-defined data in your database in some schema version A or structure version A, and then you have a well-defined version B that you need to migrate to. So you know upfront the shape of data that you're going to transform. And you can write a migration script in increments, you can up-migrate, you can down-migrate, see if everything is OK, and then you're good to go. So this ambiguity of the shape of data is very less when you're migrating, typically, in a typical setup, as opposed to in the pipeline that we talk about in ETL, it's, in most of the cases, you may or may not know the shape of the data because you would be integrating with third-party systems that you don't control, and they change the schema without informing you. And that's the part where the transform in the ETL or ELT is flaky, if I can put it that way. Because, unlike your migration scenario, you don't see the data upfront or the shape of the data upfront, and it tends to be a little unstable at times.

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Neal: Well, and one of the destinations that used to be a popular destination for this kind of data is a star schema, which is a schema that's optimized for doing queries for this kind of analytical behavior. But it seems to me that that's also very fragile because if you change your operational schema, that has to feed into the star schema, which is fundamentally different. And so I think that's part of the traditional resistance we've seen from database administrators in enterprise environments from changing schemas because you're liable to break that downstream operation that relies on this kind of known certain known quantity on the other side.

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Bharani: Exactly, yeah.

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Neal: OK, so why is this interesting now? So I think we've defined terms. Extract, transform, and load, we understand what that is. We understand what SQL is. So let's talk about why this was a subject that came up in our TAB meeting because this has obviously been around for a long time. So why is this an interesting topic now?

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Madhu: So I think there is a history to it. OK, so if you traditionally start with the traditional data warehouses, there is limited by the computing power and a tight coupling between the storage and the compute together. And I think people started with the SQL and PL/SQL to do the ETL's part. And there is always competing workloads with analytical versus transformation workloads. That is the time ETL tools come into picture. OK, you can offload the transformations and database prime or warehouse primarily used for analytical queries. So over a period of time, again, big data came in, and people did not have a chance to leverage SQL. People moved towards MapReduce then spark and those things. And there is cloud computing, I think, more and more power being added to the processing. Again, this is the time, especially if I talk about the cloud data warehouse, BigQuery, or Snowflake. These are game changers. The first thing is separation of compute and storage, and also there is a dynamic compute loads. Snowflake says I have a virtual warehouse, I can use certain virtual warehouses for integration workloads, certain warehouses for analytical queries. So there is no compete in the compute power. Similarly, there is a BigQuery. You can say burst computing or dynamic computing is always available. OK, so one side you have great SQL skills by the data professionals earlier limited by the computing power. Now, there is abundant compute power. And you can leverage the same SQL to do these kind of transformations.ÌýOK, we have scalability coming into picture so that people naturally tries to move towards that. Other thing which I wanted to talk about is there is continuous innovation is happening. Even in big data worlds, also like MapReduce moved to Hive, then Spark also started supporting SQL. Even Databricks started giving the SQL endpoints. What I wanted to talk about is further new innovations like DBT tools came into picture, which is more and more encouraging the engineering practices bring into the SQL world. That is one of the, I think, drawback, I would say, SQL deploying as ETL pipelines, and those things. DBT actually bring those —a lot more engineering practices, version control, modularity. Then, you can survey promotion easily from one end and another environment, testability by expectations. OK, all these kinds of features bring into the SQL —which makes SQL more powerful. I think that is the reason I think I can leverage MySQL skills and also bring a lot more transparency to the transformations. So even business users can look at this: oh, this is looks good to go for my business rules.

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Bharani: Yeah, I was just going to say plus one. Over the years, SQL got a little bit more interesting because we've got more and more analytical functions got added to the language. I know different databases support different levels of SQL, but you've got things like windowing functions. You've got common table expressions. There is even a group that argues SQL is now Turing complete! We can agree or disagree to that, but they've implemented cyclic tag systems, which is a Turing machine. So SQL got a lot more analytical power and a lot more expressive, though as not expressive as your common programming language. But it has got better over time. So the fact that SQL has this new capability together with Turing, like what Madhu mentioned about things like DBT, those are the enablers, I would say, that makes SQL a very attractive option if you want to do the transformations inside the data warehouse.

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Rebecca: So we've often talked about things like stored procedures on hold and all of the different ways people try to use SQL too much. How would you respond to someone who says, aren't you being inconsistent by saying, oh, SQL is now this wonderful, powerful language, but you shouldn't use SQL this way, but you should use SQL that way? How do you respond to something like that?

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Bharani: I think a part of that advice is still true. We don't want engineers to write their business logic inside a database and hence — because it makes it difficult to version, difficult to test, and it makes our life much more complicated. You would rather use a full-fledged programming language for that. But in this case, what makes SQL interesting is that you get all the goodness of a proper programming language, like what Madhu was talking about earlier. You can write modular code because tools like DBT leverage a templating engine. So you can write small reusable functions in SQL. And then, with the templating engine, it will kind of compile it to a complete SQL in the end. So you get that modularity in SQL now. You can check it into your source control and version like a normal programming language. You can write unit tests for this piece of functionality, which makes it great. So you get all this goodness minus the negative effects of having a store proc. So that's why it's interesting. So it is not one advice to say that do everything in SQL. That's not something you're saying. But if you have — it always depends on what is a simple transformation. But if you have that level of capability of SQL in your team and you think this is straightforward to implement and model in SQL, I think SQL is still an attractive action, attractive option, sorry, for transformation.

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Madhu: Yeah, I think if you can model your business rules as SQL logic, as long as it's not too complex, OK, I see the code, having a 10 self-joins, as long as you're not getting into that zone, I think still SQL is still a better choice.

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Neal: So that brings us to the inevitable, which I think is why this ended up as too complex to blip on our radar, which is the context. So we're not saying that you should always only use SQL as ETL. So let's talk about what are some of the contexts where you would or some of the situations where you would and would still continue to use a specialized tool for this kind of stuff. So this is — what is this better for and what are alternatives or case studies that would still lean you toward some of the more traditional tools?Ìý

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Bharani: I'm going to introduce another acronym. So we talked about ETL. Now, there is another acronym which is very similar to it called ELT. So it's basically as if you are swapping L and T, the order of L and T. So you basically extract the data, you first load it in your data warehouse without doing any transformation, and then use the SQL engine of the data warehouse to do the transformation. And this way, you can use SQL power. And since the data is already in the data warehouse, it can manipulate it much faster. So just to answer your first question, when you should embrace using SQL for transformation, most likely, you are you are embracing ELT instead of ETL. So you have data already loaded. It's far easier to just use the existing DB engine to do transformation instead of going out of the database. So that's the first option. And the second one, for which the real answer is it depends, what Madhu also said. If your transformation logic is straightforward to implement, and you're not doing excessive joins, and it's — you would know that it's in a mess. Unless you're not in that state, I think it's still OK to do that transformation in SQL.Ìý

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Madhu: Just to add, I think another point to where you don't use in SQL as a first choice is when you're dealing with unstructured data or semi-structured data. SQL is not competent enough to handle that. This is where you use other programming paradigms to handle the unstructured data, structurize it, then hand it over to SQL for the transformations.

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Bharani: Yeah, that's a good point. Yes. Yeah, SQL, by its very definition, works on structured relational data. Yeah, so you have that limitation. Though, more and more, with support for JSON, you can do semi-structured, but it also depends. If you are working with a really dense JSON that you think you're better off with a third-party library, then just pick a programming language to model the transformations.

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Rebecca: So this is definitely one of those cases where we need to be cautious of, oh, gee, 80% of this is easy, and 10% of this is a little squirrely and the last 10% of it is a mess. So we need to be cognizant of when we are falling off the cliff of, gee, I really shouldn't be trying to do this with SQL. I should be using a more powerful tool.

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Neal: Yeah, I think part of what — so the elephant in the room in all these conversations, and the reason you have to think so much about where things run is because we're talking about such huge volumes of data. And to Madhu's point earlier, the entire ecosystem that we're dealing with has changed recently because of cloud environments where you can, in fact, run these massive queries against your data. So that would lead you to some ELT environment where you do have enough resources, where a lot of the battle. And a lot of the need for the tools before was to offload the actual workload of this data because there was so much of it, and you didn't want to bog down your existing system so much.

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So being able to separate things cleanly operationally like that with cloud environments, I think, makes this a more attractive option, coupled with the fact that SQL has gotten more powerful. So it seems like this is one of those places where a lot of people started rejecting SQL to do this because it wasn't powerful enough and because of resource constraints. And then, slowly, the ecosystem has evolved and changed to the point where now it’s time to reevaluate this for some situations where you might be currently using some sort of specialized tool. Is that a good summation of what we've been talking about so far?

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Bharani: Yeah.

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Neal: So Bharani started talking about some of the things that you should do with SQL. So how do we have some advice, some best practices, and some good approaches to take if you're going to do this because we realize, too, that SQL is a golden hammer in some organizations and ends up getting misused, as Rebecca was alluding to before, getting you closer to that last 10% trap. So what are some of the ways to some of the best practices that we've figured out if we're going to use SQL for this purpose?

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Madhu: Maybe I would say one of the things is yeah, bring the engineering practices. Make sure that you version control the SQL files and try to modularize. OK, breaks the complex transformation of multiple SQL transformations so that you're able to manage easily and you can make necessary enhancements in those things.

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Bharani: Yeah, I was going to add that this whole — okay, I'm going to add yet another acronym! It's called DAG, directed acyclic graph. If you are familiar with SQL, this term does not come up often. But if you have built a data pipeline, this comes up again and again because what you're doing in a data pipeline is basically you're building a DAG along. There is some kind of a graph because you have to break the problem into small chunks and then stitch them together, and that forms a task execution graph. So when you start using SQL to do transformation, like what Rebecca was saying, there would be parts that are easy to model, that are parts that may be difficult to model. There are parts where you're better off spinning up another programming language or a JVM or another spark engine to do the compute and then combine and then join back with SQL. You need to be aware of how the structure of your DAG looks like for you. And that's something that's critical because there are tools that make it easier. But if you're not familiar with that, then there could be rough edges when you start modeling it in SQL. So I think the knowledge of the tools in the ecosystem that make it easy to build a DAG with SQL is really, really critical. The familiar tool that we have spoken about in the radar is DBT, which stands for data build tool. So that's the tool that we have used often that makes it easy to just do this with SQL. Everything that Madhu talked about, reusable small pieces of functionality modeled as a template and SQL, those would be the proven best practices, things that we have borrowed from the traditional software engineering, right, like write small piece of code, write unit tests, version them, manage dependency, that, I think, that's the most critical part where if you start building reusable components, you need the tool to manage the dependencies because, otherwise, it gets tricky. So yeah, all of that.

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Rebecca: So basically, treat this whole process as if it was just another part of the software development life cycle — which it is.

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Bharani: Yes! [Laughs]

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Rebecca: It's amazing how often our advice comes down to just treat this as it, which is — this is code that contributes to your overall ability to deliver business value. I like it.

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Neal: So let's talk about the negative trade-offs since this was/became too complex to blip, so there had to be some. So what are places where you absolutely should not try to use SQL as either ETL or ELT tool? What kind of scenarios would you say not?

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Bharani: I think the first one is like, Neal, you were talking about, if you are not — if you do not have a massively parallel processing data warehouse, then using SQL for transformation is a bad choice because you need to have that elastic compute power if you are doing transformation at scale. So that's the obvious one. The not-so-obvious, that kind of hits you hard, is if you do the ELT, which is extract, and then load it first and then do the transformation, you are directly coupled with your transactional systems or your upstream systems.

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So that could be a surprise. There are ways to mitigate it. You can make the loading structure schema very flexible on demand, but that is a coupling. That is a tight coupling between your transformation logic and the structure of your upstream data, which otherwise you would not have. You would let the pipeline handle all the changes of the upstream, and you just have a very well-defined format in which you can just load it in your DB. So I would say be aware of that limitation.

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Bharani: And then the very nature of SQL, right? There are newer syntax, there are newer functions to make SQL look like a full programming language, but you still have the inflexibility of expressing logic in SQL. If you make a small change in business logic, the structure of SQL might change significantly. So if you are in that paradigm, it's bad advice. It's a bad choice to use SQL for the transformation.

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Madhu: Yeah, I think this comes to the complexity of transformation. If you're not able to… yeah, I think there are transformations, you need to have a procedural language or a complex programming language. If you try to model that SQL, it's very difficult to do that. I think you have to be cautious what can be modeled in SQL. Avoid it if you… it is not easy to model in SQL.

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Rebecca: The classic just because you can doesn't mean you should! [Laughter]. Yeah, as we've been talking about this, I keep going back to the definition that Martin has in his Domain-Specific Languages book about how you actually don't want your DSL to be Turing complete because that's what programming languages are for, that this whole — the whole purpose is to model something simpler. And it seems like SQL has gotten to that wobbly stage where you want to be careful you don't lead yourself too far down that garden path.

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Neal: Well, yeah, when you see people starting to try to implement Towers of Hanoi in SQL just to prove that they can, just like they did in XSLT because it was Turing complete. You can find online Towers of Hanoi implemented in XSLT. And I'm sure someone's done it in SQL now, too, so that's definitely a cautionary tale.ÌýAnd I think you have to always be cautious, even when using a more enhanced tool is to take a step back. We get into this golden hammer mentality of, oh, I'm using this tool for this, so I should keep using this no matter how really ridiculously complex it gets when you can take a step back and say, wait a minute, this is getting really, really complicated, could I use and offload this to another tool, another, like you say, an imperative programming language instead of a set-based programming language? So I think it's wise to be always paying attention to the trade-offs when you're looking at something like that and not just blindly follow, oh, we're doing it this way, so we should just keep doing it this way no matter how far in the weeds you get. I think it's good to always keep that in mind.

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Rebecca: Well, it also sounds like that — the DAG structure that Bharani was talking about. You do have the option of saying, okay, all of this stuff can is relatively simple, and it can flow along this SQL path. And then we've got this one part of it, which is really hairy, and we'll branch that off, treat that differently, and then bring it back into the fold. And I think that having that ability within the tool chain allows for you to do the simple thing for the simple stuff and only have to use the more powerful tool for the thing that really needs it. And that's always that trade-off: well, gee, I've got this one thing that is really hard to do, so I have to use something really hard and powerful on everything. And that's technical debt. You're making things far more complicated for things that don't need it. But by having this more powerful tool chain, we can carve off that piece that's more complex.

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Neal: OK, so that's — let's wrap up. I think this may be the episode that has had the most three-letter acronyms of any of our episodes so far! And that's a pretty high bar to hit! [Laughter] So congratulations to coming up with all the acronyms. Of course, in the data world, you end up with all those things… So any last bits of advice you want to leave our listeners with about SQL and ETL or ELT?

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Madhu: I would say follow the best practices. Yeah, apply engineering practices while leveraging SQL, otherwise, you will be compromising in the deployability and other aspects of it.

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Bharani: Yeah, I would echo Madhu on this. Use SQL as a domain-specific language. It has a lot of strength, but there are rough edges. So don't shy away in acknowledging that. And I would say plus one to Rebecca, is use the right tool for the job. So if there are parts of the pipeline that make sense to use and model as a relational algebra, go for SQL. If not, don't shy away from branching out and you can always come back. And there are a number of data pipeline tools that let you do this mix and match, or rather polyglot in this data processing. So yeah, use the right tool for the right job.

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Neal: Well, like many things on our radar, there are some things that cannot be summed up in a single paragraph that take about 30 minutes of discussion. So this is a great example of one of those. So thank you so much for adding some nuance and context to this nuanced subject. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast.

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Madhu: Thank you.

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Bharani: Thank you.

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Madhu: Thanks for having us.

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